Welcome to Witchgrove!
It says on the packet:
This is a warm and welcoming network of witches, whose purpose is to learn, to discuss and to laugh together. We welcome all over 18 years. We do not tolerate flaming or copyright infringement. Please note: This is not a list where debate happens regularly. We are more a discussion-based list.
Some elaboration is clearly needed...
1, Why do you have to be over 18 to join Witchgrove?
Cerr: Legalities. Simple as that. Covering of our collective tail-feathers. It's illegal in the US for folks to teach religion to those under 18 - thus all the disclaimers and the membership letter asking if you're 18.
Georgia: Plus there are parents with something stuck up their butts and are afraid for their children to learn anything.
Anna: Which makes me wonder if Sunday School is illegal.
Roxanne: Really it's... well, we've been known to wander around the grove nekkid... and then there was the time we were all drinking really heavy and there was some questionable behavior.... and as a mother... kids 18 and younger shouldn't be seeing that because it would just scar them for life... i'm sure. Again... as a mother I wouldn't be able to reasonably explain that kind of behavior to my kids. Let alone I'd loose all credibility and they'd walk all over me.
Pixie: Yeah! What you guys said!
2, How do you define flaming and why won't you tolerate it?
Roxanne: I'm not sure if I can define it, but I remember seeing someone at camp do it when I was a kid and it was pretty gross... Now, I'm just guessing, but we'd probably have to go into therapy, if we witnessed it as an adult.
Georgia: To me, flaming is when one person personally attacks another because of a disagreement. It continues and gets nastier until both people explode into flames.
Cerr: Often, in online communities, there are folks who rage and moan at others for whatever reasons - flaming is when this gets personal. To tell someone that their perspective on something is utter crap is one version of flaming, while another version would be to say something along the lines of, "you f'ing idiot, what the f' do you know and how the f' do you get off..." Well you get the idea, I'm sure... Why isn't it tolerated? Because it's my list *insert maniacal laughter a-la Dr. Evil here* Kidding....kinda......the truth is, there is no reason a bunch of people on or offline can't get on while showing mutual respect. We may not always agree, but we demand respect, and we give it.
Anna:
Flaming:
Person X: Hi I'm new to this list and I like to cast my circles deosil.
Person Y: YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND EVERYONE KNOWS THAT A CIRCLE IS CAST WINDERSHINS. YOU ARE DUMB.
I don't tolerate it because there's always room to learn from EVERYONE no matter how long you've been on this path.
Pixie: I love to learn and share what I know. But more importantly I like to hear different points of view in order to form my own opinion. Part of what makes the Grove such a great place is that there are no RIGHT answers and I hope that our members know that no question is a stupid question. Even "seasoned" witches...and I don't mean witches marinated in red wine and herbs in a big cast iron caldron....can learn something from the questions of someone new to this path.
3, Why is copyright infringement not allowed on Witchgrove?
Cerr: Again, legalities. Another and far more important reason is that many of our listmembers are artists, writers, etc. We do not tolerate copyright infringement here out of respect.
Georgia: Another one of those stupid legal things. I do understand the reason for it but still don't like it.
Anna: Authors need to get credit where it's due. And royalties.
Pixie: To me, it's stealing to misrepresent something as your own. I wouldn't like it if someone took Zun Hilde (my VW) without asking.
4, Where is the line drawn between quoting and copyright infringement?
Roxanne: If there is one, someone probably drew it in Sidewalk Chalk and it's rained since they drew it... 'cause I don't see one... and believe me... I'm looking really hard.
Anna:
Quoting: "Now in not one of the seven apartments was there any lamp or candelabrum, but in the corridors that followed the suite, there stood, opposite to each window, a heavy tripod, being a brazier of fire that projected its rays through the tinted glass and so glaringly illumined the room." - Masque of the Red Death by Edgar Allan Poe pg. 40
Copyright Infringement: Posting the whole story of The Masque of the Red Death and not giving EAP credit and saying I wrote it.
Georgia: I say posting a paragraph and saying where, who and what. Infringement would be the whole article or book or whatever. Or trying to make a piece your own when it's not.
Cerr: Quoting is a short 'couple of lines' where the author and source is cited, however in the Grove, we ask that you get written permission from the writer/artist, etc. to post their work. If you cannot get that, you can always post a link to the artist's website or to a place online where said information might be found. If there is ever any question as to whether or not something is appropriate to post, it's certainly appropriate to ask the mods.
Pixie: 'Nuf said by everyone else -- you guys summed it up pretty well.
5, What is the difference between debate and discussion?
Roxanne: One has blood and the other doesn't.
Georgia: Debates can get heated, discussions shouldn't.
Cerr: And when those who don't know how to debate get involved, it leads quite often to flaming, misunderstandings, miscommunication, etc etc etc. Discussion is conversation.
Anna:
Discussion: Cerr, I think we need to have a civilized chat about your late night business opportunities you've been engaging in.
Cerr: What I am doing is perfectly legal and here are the laws and rules that show why it's legal and ethical.
Debate: Cerr, stop whoring around!!
Cerr: F YOU! I'm right and you're wrong!!!!!!
Pixie: A debate is where someone wins and someone loses. In a discussion, it's all about sharing.
6, Why is debate discouraged?
Georgia: 'Cause most people don't know how to debate properly.
Anna: Most people don't know how to do it properly and they take it personally.
Roxanne: Well, once Mab finishes her First Aid training, we can probably have a bit of debate.
Cerr: We're here to discuss and learn from each other, not debate why we believe what we do. For many of us, we've had all the debates we can stomach on other lists, so choose to give that a rest or take it to other lists (see Kindly Ones) when the urge to debate arises. The Grove is more of a quiet place, a place we simply get together and discuss. After a few years of behind the scenes battles to keep the Grove running, it's a decision I've made as well for self-preservation.
Mab: Plus it's not very interesting watching other people fighting, when you can see that if they'd just step back and look at themselves, there would be no real conflict. Not to mention that we work our tits off making this what it is; last time people fought, 11 people left and, on a personal level, that's frustrating.
7, Why do you send all 'political' discussions to Kindly Ones?
Roxanne: I do believe they have a Medic on staff... don't they?
Cerr: Far better and bigger lists than the Grove have gone under because of political debate, misunderstandings, etc etc etc. For this reason Kindly Ones was created where you can safely talk politics as much as you can possibly stand it. It's also a great place where you can discover that people are NOT their country's leaders, that politics/political affiliation do not necessarily make people bad, just different.
Anna: Many a political comment has ruined an e-list or 8.
Mab: Alright! It was me. I once destroyed two and a half mailing lists arguing about politics. Two never recovered and vanished completely, after most of the list-members left; and the other went silent for ages, until a few tentative posts resurrected it again.
Georgia: Politics can explode very quickly and people take those discussions very personally for some reason.
Pixie: If we didn't send fresh meat over to Ian to pontificate to, where would he get it?
8, Safety of list-members appears to be a priority. Cerr has said, 'it's a safe place for everyone on it and when that safety is in question we jump to taking care of whatever it is that takes that safety factor away and fix it as fast as we're able....', while Mab has talked about the need to keep Witchgrove in a 'dead calm'. Why?
Georgia: They are afraid that the folks who need the grove will run away, because they can't take or don't want any kind of ummm... negativity.
Anna: And if it's not then the Mods get more grey hair and panic attacks. It's just not in the cards this week.
Cerr: It's the best we can do for our listmembers - probably because we actually do care about said members. We've had some odd situations in the past, ie: past members coming back on using fake personas, online stalkers, etc. and we as Mods take the safety of our members VERY seriously. If something's brought to our attention, we will take every opportunity we have to check and double check whatever's needed to help them feel safe again. Some things are not in our power to fix, but if we can, we will do everything we can to bring that element of safety back for said member/s
Mab: Once I got an e-mail from a list-member telling me of a night a while back. This person had been in a bad place and was thinking that ending it was the only solution. An e-mail was needed to just tie up a loose end and while that was being sent, another from the Grove turned up. That led to this person reading it, then reading more. The simple normality, banter and calm of the Grove brought this person back to the point where it wasn't ok, but neither was it the end of the line. It took a long time to make it all the way back, but we gave them just enough foothold to hang on that little bit longer. I'm not saying that this is the whole reason that we should keep in a 'dead calm', but I'll admit that it's at the back of my mind.
Pixie: Anna's poking me with a sharp stick. That's not very safe...wait...what was the question again?
9, In a conflict between list-members, Georgia has mentioned that, 'we have to be unbiased'. Why will Witchgrove mods never take sides?
Georgia: Because there are always two sides to every story. Plus it's not our place to take side like we are still in elementary school.
Cerr: Well, I wouldn't say never - it's been known to happen - but again I will say that it's about trying to do the best we can to keep this a safe place. There have been a few times when the list and people on it have been disrespected and even attacked - as said before, we do what we can as we're able. In the process we try to take into account all sides of a situation and go from there.
Mab: We're human beings, that's true, but when it comes to the Grove I suppose that a bit of professionalism sneaks in. If I'm being approached as a mod, then in a real sense I'm being asked as a representative of Witchgrove as a whole, or, at least, someone with perhaps a bigger picture and experience of the effects of past conflicts on the Grove. Sometimes, I'm being asked as a priestess, which adds a whole new layer of impartiality. I learned early on that there's no such thing in these situations as being asked on my own part. I have visions of it turning up there, 'Mab said to stab him in the eye and chuck the remains in the cut and she's a mod...' Besides I usually genuinely like both parties in a conflict. I'll always be straight with both of them, but I'm not choosing sides.
Anna: There are many layers to the diamond and, until we know the whole the story, it's best to stay neutral. I may disagree with what one list member writes but that doesn't mean I'm going ask they be banned.
Roxanne: Because... just because...
Pixie: Actually, there are THREE sides to every story. His side, her side and the truth. However, I've heard that certain mods will take bribes...
10, Both Cerr and Pixie have emphasized the need for an 'open mind', while Anna talks about 'tolerance'. Why are things things important for Witchgrove?
Anna: Because there is so much to learn in this life and it's quite boring to have a small mind.
Georgia: Really because both of these are extremely important in life. These are the reason people can learn. Close the mind and you might as well jump off a cliff without a parachute.
Cerr: It's about safety and mutual respect.
Pixie: "Life has no other discipline to impose, if we would but realize it, than to accept life unquestioningly. Everything we shut our eyes to, everything we run away from, everything we deny, denigrate, or despise, serves to defeat us in the end. What seems nasty, painful, evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, if faced with an open mind. Every moment is a golden one for him who has the vision to recognize it as such." Henry Miller (1891 - 1980)
11, Who owns Witchgrove?
Roxanne: I do! ha... ha... hahahahahahahahahaha!!
Mab (backing away from Roxanne): Cerr.
Anna: The Official Owner is Cerr. But the Mods have ownership abilities.
Georgia: Are you a Scorpio? *snort* I feel like we all do though there may be some who feel they have no part in it. All they have to do is jump in. We all make it what it is.
Cerr: Well, I do, but that said, so do the Mods and every member of the list - they make it what it is, after all.
Mab: Ok, we all do.
Pixie: Cerr told me that we are all owners so she had coverage in case she went off the deep end...
12, Why should cutting and pasting e-mails be such an issue?
Georgia: Well, if no one was on digest, it might not be. However people are on digest and it's a bitch to go through all that over and over and over again.
Cerr: Oh dear...OK picture yourself on holiday, having put your mail to "Digest" so that you will receive one or two emails rather than oh, 50+ in a day (we're a chatty bunch, so even digests can add up - there have been times I've been on digest myself and have received 6+ digests in a day with 25 messages per digest). Now imagine the listmembers not cutting and pasting - a situation in which you have to scan through the same thing over and over and over and... well you get the idea, I trust... Cutting and pasting makes reading posts, and getting to the POINT of said posts, an easy and far more painless thing for members on and off digest!
Mab: Really? I thought the issue was so we got a break from all the off-lists complaining about it! ;-)
Anna: Being on digest is hell when you have to wade through 800 messages.
Roxanne: And when it's slow and we don't have anyone to pick on... we just go after the offenders and it shows everyone who's boss.
Pixie: I just like running around with the shiny scissors with the red silk ribbon tied on the handle!